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Miguelitro's avatar

It seems that a nonbinary category can be the beginning of a solution. It would be nice to segregate all trans/non-binary/doped up athletes in their own category and leave the men and particularly the woman alone and in peace to legitimately race against only their own kind.

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Sarah Barker's avatar

Well, maybe. In practicality, the nonbinary category has not kept trans-identified males out of the female category. And having a rules-free, doping-accepted category undermines the integrity of the sport in general, at the same time, making a mockery of USADA.

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Miguelitro's avatar

Well the existence of a third category gets a foot in the door. And since doping is such an essential part of trans existence let them have it and strictly enforce anti doping in the men/women categories. USADA integrity already undermined.

It’s a goal worth working for

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Ray Andrews's avatar

You get it. Let the trannies hoist themselves on their own petards -- give them whatever they want. Except that now that there is a non-binary category it follows that zero trannies will be permitted in the female category cuz they have their own category.

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Jul 9, 2023
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Ray Andrews's avatar

On the contrary it should be warmly supported. The sooner all this stuff is helped to it's natural implosion the better.

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Jul 10, 2023
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Miguelitro's avatar

Actually, I hope it is well attended. Take the pressure off the true men and women competitors. As a lawyer, I loved to settle cases, and this seems like a viable path--an open category.

I don't know why this personal vendetta has developed between you and Steersman, but it's not worth it, and I will say the same thing to him. I disagree with him, but he has never called me a shithead or be anything but gracious. And you neither, Chris.

Both your energies would be better spent against real adversaries elsewhere.

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Ray Andrews's avatar

Sometimes we need to fight, but sometimes laughter is the best medicine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwEDgSECGiU

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Steersman's avatar

Not sure that "an open category" really solves the problem. Transwomen have a desperate, pathological requirement to be seen as, to be taken as women, as adult human females.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/24/opinion/sunday/vaginoplasty-transgender-medicine.html?unlocked_article_code=nwmwy8oOLA9iRImxP45lWJIdOtF8spr-Nj_SvdqHf9i-2z1hXPKkKbkNZVqAxogwonL-ESfkloCXPI8KXJwMx5ckkUx7MQ2kfyuLWxcpT_zix16DexTbH2xqQlvXXij2eI3TKWPrY0ibdQ4x0hWXD1zZ7VnkOG5bhfI_5a_jmbcBBjXu_aHGeuQkptQ_2FE1Eutt2YX8Jj0p_if0iH-vuMn1IIalcHTQaGZYo1DLObgQw4RuObiUCKvyih2XcdIxn5376yrBoSJmDwPCor_GCQ7AOl93Ukm9s7kkgXRjkNDYAjIlrp5vcZnB9rCqmPaHkNyxctNuz_dT2HlrS75m52fFEBpE_-VYNIDaQZMKYozYGg&smid=url-share

https://www.nplusonemag.com/issue-34/politics/the-pink/

But the crux with that "vendetta" is that he too has a desperate insistence on what is no more than folk-biology. Seems to me that the only way forward, the only way off the horns of the transgender clusterfuck is to draw a line in the sand with standard biological definitions -- they're the only ones based on facts, logic, and solid epistemological principles; not ones based on "feelinz".

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Jul 9, 2023
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Steersman's avatar

LoL. "rational argument is not going to work."

Clearly doesn't work with you ... 🙄

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Jul 9, 2023Edited
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Miguelitro's avatar

I think you guys love each other. Why do you care?

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Jul 8, 2023
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Miguelitro's avatar

I think you mean Steersman

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Jul 8, 2023
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Miguelitro's avatar

I am not Steersman but did argue extensively against his position. Not sure why you sent this to me.

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Steersman's avatar

Maybe because Fox was, briefly, in same the conversation we were having about my "Binarists vs Spectrumists" post?

BTW, speaking of which, did you ever look up that "Yassine Meskhout ['Public Defender. Saracen Invader']" as you had suggested? Particularly his Note where he agreed with me? 😉🙂:

Yassine: "I totally agree with your comment. If we’re sorting people based on reproductive capacity, we should be comfortable acknowledging 'sexless' as a category bin because clearly it applies to a lot of people."

https://humanuseofhumanbeings.substack.com/p/binarists-vs-spectrumists/comment/16821228

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Miguelitro's avatar

Yes I did. I hope you’re well. I enjoyed our back and forth even if we did not reach consensus. Unlike others, I do not take disagreement personally--unless it becomes ad hominem. You have always been gracious.

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Miguelitro's avatar

He’s weird and not particularly rational but harmless.

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Miguelitro's avatar

What??

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K Tucker Andersen's avatar

Colin, thanks for inclusion of this post by Sarah. I am an 81 year old middle of the pack runner who has completed the NYC marathon 44 times ( confirmation is on their website) . While I am obviously not directly impacted by this acceptance of the major running organizations and sponsors of this obeisance to woke ideology, the unfairness of and corruption of the sport troubles me deeply. It is a combination of cowardice,wokeness and particularly sheer lunacy. I am certain that the huge majority of runners feel the same way , Hopefully, an effort will be coordinated. by a group of runners to pressure the organizations to rethink this ridiculous on so many levels policy. I will gladly join hat effort . Thank your for you very well researched post.

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Gerda Ho's avatar

Yes, the whole “non-binary” ,etc.is rampant insanity ,which in my 94 years on Earth I would never have dreamed of! If they want to live their lunacy , why do we become the “silent majority “? Why do we bow down and let them trample onus? It’s time to let them do their own damn marathons , swim meets, whatever. Let them do the hard work of organizing those events! Stop making things difficult for everyone else!

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Nancy Robertson's avatar

Ninety-four -- wow! You are 94 years young and as sharp as a tack!

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Frederick R Prete's avatar

Isn't this reminiscent in many ways of the 1976 Montréal Summer Olympics doping scandal in which East German women athletes (most notably, swimmers) had been the unwitting victims of a systematic government-sponsored regime of anabolic steroid administration? This was universally considered as unfair at the time... Https://everythingisbiology.substack.com/p/steroids-gender-and-fair-play ....There is an eerie comparison between the two, I think. It is striking how our values and interpretations of both biology and athletics have changed so dramatically. As I've suggested (and so many others have, too), it would be so much simpler (and make more sense) to establish male, female, and open competitive categories. Under that rubric, everyone gets to compete, knows against whom they're competing, and competition is fair. Inclusion and fair play are not necessarily incompatible. Thank you for very interesting essay. Sincerely, Frederick

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Miguelitro's avatar

Agree 100%. The comparison to the East German “women” occurred to me too.

Scary how quickly things have changed. The East Germans were nothin’ compared to Lia Thomas. Now they would be given a freaking medal.

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John Robert's avatar

The first time I saw a picture of "Lia", my i immediate though was of East German women shot putters.

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Ray Andrews's avatar

> By offering a nonbinary category, race organizations are relinquishing any grasp on reality, and must accept whatever identity the entrant tells them.

> By swallowing gender ideology, USADA has divorced itself from reality to an extent that it cannot effectively perform its primary function of ensuring fair play.

Sorry, for probably the first time I find myself in stark disagreement with RLS. It seems to me what the USADA has done is quarantine the trannies in their own category, thus insuring that real men and women are indeed protected from the nonsense. Who cares what rules are used in the reality-denying category? Let them take whatever drugs they want, it should be up to the inmates to run that asylum, no? Are they 'swallowing gender ideology' or merely parking it in a safe place where normal people can ignore it? Besides, think of the fun watching them make their own rules. I'd predict a very quick implosion.

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Sarah Barker's avatar

The nonbinary category does not quarantine "trannies." The winner of Boston's NB category has raced in the male, female,and NB categories. There is nothing stopping trans-identified men from competing in the women's category. And they do. If there is rampant doping with the blessing of USADA in the NB category, why should males and females follow the rules and not dope? I'm not even so concerned about the doping as I am about the fact that USADA, a scientific organization, is pretending that there is a sex beyond male and female, and are basing decisions on this lie. We all need to agree there are males and females and that sex is immutable. If we allow fake categories to exist, everything that flows from that will be a problem, a lie, the antithesis of fair play in sport.

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Jul 9, 2023
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Ray Andrews's avatar

"USADA, a scientific organization, is pretending that there is a sex beyond male and female"

Yes, pretending. So let the pretenders pretend away. Some things are so stupid that the right thing to do is to support them. Anyway, the entire point should be to quarantine, if that's not happening then it should be -- and the more drugs they take, the better. But sure, if trannies are still free to compete as women -- when they are explicitly trannies -- then 2+2=5.

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Miguelitro's avatar

You and I think alike

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Miguelitro's avatar

Great minds think alike

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Ray Andrews's avatar

That's rather different isn't it? Silly games are one thing, damaging kids is another. See, a non-binary category in sports invites these people to make asses of themselves for all the world's entertainment. Let's have the drag queen Olympics -- and they must compete in costume. I love it. But we save our ammunition for the battles that matter, and protecting kids is that.

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Nancy Robertson's avatar

This situation is no more and no less outrageous and disgusting than any other aspect of "transgenderism."

Who's pulling the strings to spread this foul bowel movement through the sports world? Is it Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock ($9 Trillion and counting), whose ESG scoring system and CEI rating system are used to determine whether or not BlackRock invests in a company based on how enthusiastically that company sucks up to "transgenderism." Has Larry boy threatened to turn off the money spigot unless the USADA makes room for "Tranny?"

The best way to stop the USADA is to speak out and talk to our friends and family about the absurdity and harm of "transgenderism" in sports and in every other part of life. The "transgender" movement is a totalitarian movement. Like all other totalitarian movements before it, "transgenderism" will be defeated as soon as the people rise up and say, "No!"

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Gerda Ho's avatar

I agree with you 100%! The ideology is a huge totalitarian takeover , and it’s time sane people stood up to them and called their bluff! Totalitarianism is never nice, and these are NOT NICE PEOPLE! The more they get, the more they want, meanwhile whining about how badly they’re treated while treating everyone else like crap!Narcissistic bullies that want everything their way.Plus the whole ideology is based on lies!

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Nancy Robertson's avatar

You took the words right out of my mouth, Renate Bob!

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Ray Andrews's avatar

What's the one thing no fundamentalist can stand? Humor. They go for the comedians first because the comedians can puncture the balloon of self-righteous virtue inflation that all fundamentalisms rely on. Let's have the Trannie Games! By getting worked up we give these shit disturbers exactly what they want. Picture in your mind the drag queen 100M dash. We need this folks, I haven't had a real gut-spitting laugh since Monty Python.

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Nancy Robertson's avatar

Yes. Transhumanism and "transgenderism" are tightly linked. And Jennifer Bilek's 11th Hour Blog is the very best source of information about those awful Pritzkers and the link between big money, "transgenderism," and transhumanism. Last year I wrote an article for the blog about some of those creepy billionaires. See the two links below:

https://www.the11thhourblog.com/

https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/william-sims-bainbridge-top-advisor-to-the-us-government-and-martine-rothblatt-part-1

By the way, here's something to really worry about. If Biden is shunted aside because of his dementia and scandals, Gov. Gavin Newsom of California (Democrat) will most likely be nominated, and he could easily win. He's tall (6'3"), young (56), athletic, movie star handsome, close to the billionaire Getty family, and has been pushing "transgenderism" like there's no tomorrow.

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Nancy Robertson's avatar

Yes. Glow in the dark radioactive waste.

By the way, I'm old enough to remember 50 and 60 years ago when California was the Golden State that everyone looked up to. Those days are long gone. I had lived in the heart of San Francisco for many years. Now I can't believe how that city has nosedived straight into the sewer. It's like a nightmare come to life.

By the way, Jennifer's blog will soon publish my interview with Stella Morabito, a former CIA analyst. In her recent book, The Weaponization of Loneliness and the interview, she points out the many parallels between the totalitarian takeovers of the past and what we're seeing here in the US today. She also covers how average people can come together to defeat the tyrants.

https://www.amazon.com/Weaponization-Loneliness-Tyrants-Isolation-Silence-ebook/dp/B0BL86TPWD/ref=sr_1_1?crid=160SN9AF396DH&keywords=the+weaponization+of+loneliness+stella+morabito&qid=1688941423&sprefix=weaponization+%2Caps%2C133&sr=8-1

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Passion guided by reason's avatar

I think Ray and Miguelitro have a good idea. If we could get a third category which was the place for all trangender folks in general (trans women, trans men, nonbinary), that would be a solution.

I'd actually be quite interested in how that shook out over time. Imagine a category combining biological males and biological females, with some of the biological females allowed to dope with testosterone (only if they identify as nonbinary). Would the undoped males, or the doped females, wind up more commonly at the top? Would they all feel fine about that or would internal divisions evolve?

Or let them all dope, that would be fine with me too.

Meanwhile the male and female categories would be only for undoped "cis" athletes. Win/win.

----

It wasn't mentioned here, but at least in some races with monetary prizes, the non-binary runners have demanded equal payouts for their category. So we should be prepared for this in advance. Perhaps the monetary prizes should be tied to the number of fee paying participants in each category.

But honestly, I'd be fine with equal payouts (for those races with payouts), if it just got the trans folks their own league where they can make up their own rules, and allow the rest of sports to continue in a saner way.

If this entered the professional sports area, I am imagining that the networks willing to sponsor in return for access might be less sports channels, and more reality TV channels - providing viewers with a (reality tv type simulacrum of a) ringside seat at the ensuing dramas as the participants try to out-woke each other for advantage, throwing tantrums, playing the bigger victim, and generally engage in competitives reframing. Maybe do a bit of sports on the side. But maybe I'm too cynical. If they managed to do something positive, I'd be happy for them; I like a win/win with their having their own space separate from the rest of athletics.

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Miguelitro's avatar

It’s worth a try. And I think for it to work, we have to really support it. It should be a “rules free” open category. I used to be an outrigger canoe racer, and we had an open category like this. And men’s and women’s divisions where the real races occurred.

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Ray Andrews's avatar

That's the spirit. Think Monty Python's 'twit races', only now it's twits and trannies. No rules but -- and here's the sweet thing folks -- no adult supervision *at all* -- the children will be entrusted to make their own rules. What's going to happen? Get the popcorn, crack open a beer, and prepare to be entertained.

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Miguelitro's avatar

That’s true now, Chris. And it’s hard to predict the future, but my sense is that the activists bit off more than most people can chew and we will see blowback even in liberal areas like LA where I am from.

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Ute Heggen's avatar

Great work! Here's a quick view into the woo that virtue signaling, perhaps by a philandering (now, finally) King, will promote through his Crown Prosecution Service. (women being accused of domestic violence for trying to retain the finances to feed the children, "after he comes out")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgI0NJMnTbg&t=2s

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A. J. Cameron's avatar

I recently self published a book which you might like, "Supplement Your Stride: The Complete Runners Supplements Book", available on Amazon, very reasonably priced. As a runner myself, I found the information out there contradictory, biased and overwhelming, so did my own research on the science and hard evidence and studies behind all the major supplements.

https://booksbyajcameron.substack.com/p/runners-supplements-book

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GBM's avatar

Thanks, Sarah. It is shocking the extent to which so many organizations have genuflected before the altar of transgender ideology. A woman is a woman and a man is a man. Young people are getting failed in class and expelled from school for so stating. It is abominable. The mainstream does not want to put these ideas up for a vote because they would be defeated in definitive ways. Up is down and down is up. Keep up the good work.

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Sufeitzy's avatar

Ahh, again gender. Ghosts, goblins, gremlins and genders - unreal fictions. Making decisions with irrational inputs always arrives at risible failure. There is nothing preventing a man from changing his birth sex to female and then in a bullshit backflip claiming transgender male status requiring testosterone to compete as a... man. It’s not real folks, it’s a fiction, an opinion, a racket. Whenever someone must say birth sex or biological sex to clarify reality, you’ve just seen another tacit acknowledgement that gender doesn’t exist. When you acknowledge that fact to yourself its shockingly clear how sad the contortions otherwise intelligent people make to try to keep the idea afloat.

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Sufeitzy's avatar

Sexual folklore

Steersman, you’re passionately and irrationally defending what can generously be called sexual folklore - “gender”. Science, particularly social sciences, are littered with zombie ideas which persist beyond useful life because there are pockets of resistance to reality, careers built upon this resistance.

A simple factual example which your admirable search engine skills should find, including hundreds of not thousands of books, research articles, and other profound scientific output created to support the concept of “repressed memories” which bears remarkable resemblance structurally to “gender”. You may find names like Freud involved. An industry of psychologists and medical authorities came into being around the folkloric concept that our mind held unspeakable memories causing crisis-level dysphoria and acknowledgement of their reality would relieve the pain. Unfortunately legal scrutiny popped the bubble of the mass hysteria. Turns out when you tell someone often enough they have a fictional mental system, they eventually believe you and make up experience to support the idea. Hmmm!

A second (minor) factual example in physical sciences is “cold fusion” (dare I call it out). Another bit of folklore which all came to naught. You will find an enormous amount of output, investment, time and careers spent on the subject, and poof! The bit of folklore is gone.

A third factual example of this phenomenon is a cluster of scientific work focused on “Parapsychology”. I mean - it has the word “psychology” in it so it must be real. Somewhere in the early part of the 20th century intelligent people believed folklore that certain individuals had the ability to sense thoughts, “see” distant events or influence physical reality by mental projection. A form of folklore (second sight!) given the trappings of science, including credulous scholarly institutions devoting time and money to research on the topic. Alas, it’s good for movies but bad for careers.

A fourth factual example of this is the persistent believe in the reality of the “occult”, which perhaps overlaps parapsychology, perhaps religion, but a bit of witchcraft and revealed truth. Occult was able to use the mantle of “occult sciences” briefly, with required seriousness. It reached its apotheosis perhaps with Oprah Winfrey discussing “The Secret” (without giggling) in public. Folklore is that if we all just willed it hard enough, reality would reflect our needs. Sounds familiar! I found in practice though through decades of high-IQ willing, the universe has not eliminated zombie ideas.

A fifth factual example of this is the prodigious branch of Linguistics focused on a universal brain “organ” which embodies a universal human grammar. It’s all so fantastically esoteric if you look into it, and the insularity is astonishing, but in the end, we watch the brainchild of the prodigious Noam Chompsky slowly evaporating, particularly with the advent of brain-free language machines built only out of statistical inference.

Which brings us back the invention of gender by a psychologist focused on performing surgery on children’s genitals in order to “align” them with sex-stererotyped behaviors he called gender roles. The abomination of child genital mutilation has spread as children have been increasingly convinced of the “fact” of their “gender” independent of, and perhaps in contrast to their sex. Gender exists if one could say it, only as degree of conformance or rejection of cultural stereotypes.

The little gender goblin is sitting on the shoulders of poor children whispering in their ear that they are not like other boys or girls, that their real thoughts are wrong for their body… the little gender goblin.

Repressed memories, gender, cold fusion, parapsychology, the occult sciences, linguistic organs, I could go further with Race science, phrenology… Dark Matter is heading that direction in physics fighting desperately against Verlinde quantum gravity.

And folkloric Gender. Go for it!

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Steersman's avatar

Edited to remove this passage? Tsk, tsk. Historical Revisionism Is Us; you have a future with the Ministry of Truth ...

Chris Fox: "I hope that you were writing for the other readers and not for the Steersman troll; he is too feebleminded to understand that some people can actually originate text instead of copy-pasting it and googling for 'citations.' ..."

But I've already reported; I have the receipts in case anyone is interested in more in the same vein.

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Steersman's avatar

LoL. Also "objective truth" that you called me a "troll" and "feebleminded".

Talk about "reflexively dishonest" ...

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